More on Magic - Some Realizations

I've been talking about complicating the magic user class (here and here) by giving them possibly unlimited use of cantrips (0 level spells) but requiring the cantrips as prerequisites for higher level spells. Thus, to cast Mirror Image you'd have to have some kind of zero-level bend light cantrip (the first link above goes into that).

Rob Conley of Bat In the Attic suggested in a comment that I check out GURPS because the magic system does just that - it's progressive - to cast the really good stuff, you have to learn the really basic AND intermediary stuff. Very cool.

So I read through the magic system in GURPS 4e Magic (as well as the magic chapter in GURPS 4e) and I really like it. As I was reading I was thinking that I'd like to just bolt this on to AD&D - tweak it a little and then call it the magic system. I'd toyed with point systems before, so this wouldn't be that different. And GURPS (like 2ed) divides spells into colleges, which is okay - I think that I could deal with that, too - just have to brush up on the rules for non-college spell use. And GURPS has some really cool spells, too - so that's a plus - either bolted on nearly as is, or as a resource to mine for AD&D spells.

But it all kind of came crashing down on me when I saw this in the appendix:

That's when I realized that it wouldn't just be fiddly - but downright complex. Now, I recognize that GURPS 4e has something like 1,000 spells to deal with, so that's going to make the flowchart even more complicated and 1ed AD&D mages only have 260 (counting UA) spells (+66 Cantrips, though I'd be rewriting nearly all of those if I went with my system) and Illusionists 92(+8) - so AD&D is less complicated to begin with...but it might not be as easy to systematize those...352 spells (and 74 cantrips) in the way that GURPS has (NOTE 2ed has 312 magic user spells - divided into schools - cantrips are handled way differently than in 1edUA). NOTE, too that none of the above (AD&D) includes reversed spells. So...maybe it's not quite as uncomplicated as I thought at first...

So, I'm kind of back at the beginning. I really like AD&D (actually I like it as is but I'm a consummate tinkerer, so I can't help myself) - and I like GURPS magic - but I don't like GURPS rules in general (I like archetypes - character classes - ability scores - saving throws - etc the way they are in AD&D).

So I'm going to explore my ideas a little further - GURPS is a great reference for how to handle the idea of prerequisite spells - but I have to decide how UN-AD&D I'm willing to go. The whole original idea was similar to what James M posted here - only to reverse engineer it - so that it's a kind of "at will" ability for spell casters who know certain spells - not just when they have them memorized, but at just about any time - maybe limited in some way (like# of uses = INT + level or something...).

So - with GURPS sitting open here, the secondary effects from Trollsmyth (for B/X, but a start) and my PH, UA and 2ed PH open as well - I'll try to see what I can come up with...

Magic Push...

So the other day, Lord Kilgore stirred some things up for suggesting that Mages might have some kind of magical Blast power that gives Mages a bit of something to do in combat. Yeah, it's not Vancian (big deal) and, gasp, it sounds like something that comes from later editions.

Here's my thought on the matter. How about at 1st level the mage gets some kind of a magical "push" ability (yes, I know, the spell...whatever) where the creature (or creatures, I guess) is thrown back and out of range of the mage for a round, no damage - I'm thinking of having watched Legend of the Seeker recently and Zed could send out these waves of energy that knock people over. So, what about that? Just kind of "pushing back" the foes so that the real fighters can take care of them? Maybe push back 1d4 HD per level of the mage?(so, yeah, at 10th level it's 10-40 HD - too much?) Not dealing any damage, just giving the mage a round breather from getting run-through - maybe then being able to get off a spell - or shove another opponent away...

Or - heck, why not a simplified Magic Missile kind of ability - 1d4 damage per level of mage - or even 1d2 damage per level - but not automatic hit (have to figure out the mechanic to hit...). So, yeah, again 10th level would do 10-40 (or 10-20) hp damage - pretty significant, I guess. Maybe too much. Heck - maybe make Magic Missile (can I use this term and still be a Grognard) "At Will"? Nah, too powerful...

I think of the two options, I prefer the Push/Shove option - it gives mages a bit more defensive capability - but not much more in their arsenal for attacking, since it does no damage whatsoever (hmmm, though shoving someone off a cliff...hmmm...of course, how often would that happen? Heck, I'd probably give a bonus to XP if a player used the ability creatively) Heh - and on a failure roll (yeah, still contemplating that one) the MAGE gets thrown back and maybe stunned for a round or something...

MORE, More, More on Mages

Last week I posted some stuff about mages and Stuart from ilkleyoldschool.blogspot.com noted that maybe I've made being a mage too dangerous. I agree. I was thinking that 5% chance of something bad happening might not be that big a deal, but it IS one in 20, so I'm rethinking that post with something like:

1% first cast, 3-5% second cast (not sure where I fall on this yet), 10% third, 20% fourth, 40% fifth, 75% sixth, 95% seventh and subsequent (or 99%) of the same spell. Note that this is not (or wasn't, but hmmm...) intended for casting spells in general. That is a Fireball and then an invisiblity and then charm person and then rope trick - all at normal chances - but then a second charm person, 3-5% chance of something really bad happening, and, of course, all that assumes casting within a certain time frame - 12 hours? 4 hours? Dunno... I don't think I mind the extra book keeping (though it's all theorhetical at the moment as I'm sans gaming group) but we'll see. So far I think I've proposed the most complications for the magic using class.

The idea behind this is that magic is dangerous, somewhat unpredictable - yet I could see the mage saying to himself, well, I have a pretty good chance of getting this third lightning bolt off - if it'll save the party or whatever. You know, basically knowing that there could be very dire consequences for manipulating the arcane energies - yet weighing the risks with the hoped for outcome. I would think that you would have to be desperate indeed to launch that sixth fireball (giving you 75% chance of blowing yourself up - or worse...) but "desperate times call for desperate measures".

Bear in mind, half of what this blog is all about is me brainstorming "on paper" as it were - so there's a lot of stuff here that has never been (and probably will never be) playtested - just musings for my entertainment...

More...More on Mages

So, what keeps mages from taking over the world? Looking over spell lists in nearly any version of D&D, at high levels they can be walking arsenals - and pretty invulnerable to most of what the mundane world can throw at them...

I'm thinking that magic ought to be dangerous - the more powerful, the more dangerous - so there could be very high level mages - but they might get consumed by their own power if they aren't very, very careful about how they use the magic. So, while a mage could conceivably walk around and blow fireballs at everything in sight, what if there's a cumulative danger in unleashing them? (hmmm - 5% for first 10% for second 20% for third 40%, 80%, 99%...chance of something very bad happening - but what? Summoning a hostile fire elemental? That would be in keeping with the notion of summoning a bit of the elemental plane of fire as the fireball spell - assuming that's the fundamental mechanic of a fireball spell).

So, while there could be some generic "spell failure" tables and the like - maybe there should be some kind of specialized mechanics for overuse of magic. I've considered the mechanic of magic costing the mage Constitution points or even Hit Points (because of how I envision magic working in Daen Ral) - but I think I want something more directly applicable to the actual use of magic...

So...maybe there's both the chance of failure (see previous post) as well as the chance of something very, very bad happening, especially as a mage uses more and more magic in a short period of time.

That might make mages less useful in combat, of course, but perhaps they would need to be more creative - or make more use of wands and potions and scrolls and the like (which would not necessarily be under the same constraints as the mage actually wrestling with the arcane energies him/herself).

Image: Public Domain

More on Mages

So last week I mused on mages a bit - here's another post on the class.

So I read chainmail bikini's take on spell complexity and it rattled something in my imagination that I thought might be interesting to explore.

The idea that magic is difficult to master is a given in my world - otherwise, everybody would be doing it (though some very low level magics are fairly common - curses, charms, even potions might be considered "low level" magic in the sense that many people can do these things...). So maybe magic is complicated enough that there's a chance for complete failure, but it's also powerful and just unpredictable enough that there's a chance for wild success.

Chainmail Bikini goes with d12 and spell levels. Here, let me quote it:

Spell Complexity
When a spell is cast, there is a chance that it may fail, it may be delayed by one round, it may be cast normally, or it may be cast and remembered for re-casting.
Roll 1d12 and consult this table:
- if roll = 1, the spell fails and is exhausted from the sorcerer
- if roll <= spell level, the spell will be cast the following roundand exhausted from the sorcerer
- if roll > spell level, the spell is cast immediately and exhausted from the sorcerer
- if roll = 12, the spell is cast immediately and retained by the sorcerer

However, if I'm going to go with spell levels, I'm thinking that d8 or d10 would work better since there's such a wide opportunity for success, even with very high level spells... Alternately, one could use d20 and use the caster's level instead of the spell level (thus, a roll over the caster's level indicates success...wait, that means that as the caster gains levels, he gets LESS likely to succeed...no, that won't work - invert the table?)

CASTER LEVEL

if roll = 1, the spell is cast immediately and retained by the caster

if roll is <>

if roll is > than or = to caster level, the spell is cast the following round and exhausted from the caster

if roll is 20, the spell fails and is exhausted from the caster (alt - additional roll, if 20, critical failure of spell...heh)

Once a mage hits 20th level, there is only a 5% chance of any spell failing. That seems reasonable to me.

I might be inclined to use the Bikini's method, since I like the fact that higher level spells really ARE hard to cast - though, as I said, I'd probably use a d10 (1 always fails, a 10 always succeeds with the spell retention) which makes higher level spells more likely to be delayed (and thus interrupted). I think I'd add a second roll for either a 1 or a 10 for a critical failure or a dramatic success (with subsequent sub tables). I don't worry too much about complexity at this point (see my post on counter spells for some more complexity...).

Just another idea...

Thoughts on Mages

Okay - I've got a draft of something to make thieves more versatile, now I'll turn my attention to mages.

In Daen Ral I'd like mages to be able to do certain things automatically (obviously, with a certain degree of concentration) - like detect and read magic. For the concentration mechanic, I'm thinking a simple d20 vs. INT (with bonuses if it is quiet and peaceful, penalties if the surroundings are noisy and chaotic).

So, I'd like MUs to be able to use cantrips - and pretty much at will. Not every cantrip, per se, but a certain number. These would represent the base magical lessons they learned from their master - and they would be so ingrained that they wouldn't even need to be memorized.

But here's the kicker in this. I was thinking that some cantrips are related to more powerful magics and could be the first steps in learning those higher level spells. So something like Smokepuff could lead you to cloudkill and cloudburst - maybe related to lightning bolt, too? You don't know Smokepuff? You can't learn cloudburst, etc.

Yeah, a logistical nightmare. But, hey, this game is a hobby, so it's my free time, right?

So mages become more versatile, in a sense (being able to do some minor things without expending any energy at all) but also become somewhat limited as well, if they don't know the right cantrips.

And how cool would it be for a 12th level mage to have to find a master who could teach him the right cantrips so that he can learn the Transmute Water to Dust? (what? You don't know the Dry cantrip?)

Okay - probably too complicated, but in Daen Ral, every spell won't be available to every magic using PC. Some will have to be found and then taught (or researched over time).

The flip side of all of this is that mages will be able to create scrolls, potions and charms relatively easily (if not cheaply) so they'll have even more utility, even with the standard spell level progression charts from AD&D 1st ed.

First run through on this idea (actually, brainstorming in blogger).

Counter Spells - First Draft

A Magic User or an Illusionist can try to counter any spell that an opponent is casting. The process is as follows:

The PC must know the spell being cast, though he need not have it prepared for the day.

The PC and the opponent roll d20 modified in the following ways. If the PC does not have the spell memorized he is penalized -5 in his roll (if the spell is memorized there is no penalty, but see below). The difference in level between the PC and the opponent is added to the higher level magic-user's roll. The rolls are made and the highest roll wins (either the spell is countered or the spell cast to normal effect).

Attempting to counter a spell has a cost associated with it as follows. If the PC attempting to counter the spell has the spell prepared for the day, he will lose the ability to cast the spell in the attempted counter (whether or not the countering was successful) for the rest of the day (until such time as the spell can be re-prepared). If the PC does not have the spell memorized, he loses 1 point of constitution per level of the spell attempted to counter. The CON loss is temporary, regained at a rate of one point per hour, regardless of activity.

If the counter is successful, the magic-user whose spell was countered is stunned for one round (unable to perform any action but move at one-quarter speed) and loses the spell. There is a 5% chance (natural 20 on the part of the counterer) that the countered magic-user will be knocked unconscious for 2-12 rounds. A natural 20 on the part of the original caster means no only does the spell succeed, but that the counter spell caster's level is added to the caster's in order to determine effect (that is, a 5^th level mu tries to counter a 4^th level mu, fails as the 4^th level mu rolls a natural 20 which means automatic success and the spell is now cast at 9^th level).

For example, Gavin is a 6^th level magic user. He sees the Big Bad Evil Guy (who is a 9^th level magic user) is about to cast fireball. Gavin has fireball memorized, so he tries to counter the BBEG's spell. He rolls a 14 and the BBEG rolls a 12, which is further modified by the level difference (+3) to be 15. Thus, the spell is not countered, and Gavin loses the possibility to cast fireball until he takes time to re-prepare it.

Example 2: Gavin is a 6^th level magic-user. He sees the Big Bad Evil Guy (who is a 9^th level magic user) is about to cast fireball. Gavin does not have fireball prepared for the day, though it is in his spellbook. He decides to try to counter it, suffering a -5 penalty on his roll, since he does not have it memorized. He rolls well, a 16, modified to 11. The BBEG rolls very badly, a 4, modified to 7 by the level difference. The spell is countered. The BBEG is stunned for a round and Gavin loses 3 points of constitution.